Leaders With Lacqua Goes Green: ReNew CEO Sumant Sinha

Published on :

21 November 2024


Published By :

Bloom Berg


Category :

Interviews

 

  • [00:02]
    On this series of leaders with Blackwater goes green.
  • [00:04]
    We've spoken to key decision makers from sovereign wealth funds to waste
  • [00:08]
    management companies and even leading philanthropists to see how they're
  • [00:11]
    navigating the climate transition. And we finish with an entrepreneur who
  • [00:15]
    wants to be at the forefront of the clean energy revolution in both his home
  • [00:19]
    country and across the world. Sumant Sinha is a founder of one of
  • [00:24]
    India's largest renewable power developers and the first to list on the
  • [00:28]
    Nasdaq. A former banker in New York and London.
  • [00:31]
    Sinha returned to India and founded the company in 2011, expecting the country
  • [00:36]
    to experience rapid growth. He says India will become the largest
  • [00:40]
    contributor to global energy demand, requiring even more power than the U.S.
  • [00:45]
    or China. On this episode, we discuss his
  • [00:48]
    professional journey, the opportunities and challenges from the climate crisis,
  • [00:52]
    and why he thinks India will have to grow in a unique carbon light way.
  • [00:59]
    So thank you so much for joining us on Leaders with Black Women.
  • [01:02]
    You have an amazing story. You were a banker.
  • [01:04]
    You happily live in London and then Delhi and you think, actually, I want to
  • [01:08]
    be an entrepreneur and I want to be an entrepreneur or renewables.
  • [01:12]
    Yeah, You know, life doesn't go in straight lines, as you know, right?
  • [01:15]
    So everything sort of leads up to it. And eventually when you look back, it
  • [01:19]
    sort of all makes perfect sense. But when you're going through the
  • [01:21]
    motions, you're sort of just trying to optimize the next decision.
  • [01:25]
    So I was a banker, as you said, in New York, in London for a while.
  • [01:28]
    But then I wanted to go back to India because I felt that India would
  • [01:32]
    eventually grow, just like China had done.
  • [01:35]
    And so I thought that it would be a good sort of place for me to take forward the
  • [01:39]
    next part of my career. So I went back to India and I joined a
  • [01:42]
    corporate as a CFO, a large business conglomerate, and I worked there for
  • [01:46]
    about six years before I then decided to start on my own.
  • [01:52]
    And, you know, the desire to be an entrepreneur had always been there.
  • [01:55]
    It was just that I didn't know exactly what I should be doing.
  • [01:58]
    But getting into renewables and working for a renewables company actually gave
  • [02:04]
    me the opportunity to understand the sector.
  • [02:06]
    And as a finance person, it is very important for me to get sectoral
  • [02:09]
    understanding of something at a very early stage, and renewables and climate
  • [02:14]
    change in general ended up being that area.
  • [02:17]
    So I'm really glad that I got into it because it really opened up doors for
  • [02:21]
    me. Is this India's decade?
  • [02:24]
    I would say so. I would say so.
  • [02:25]
    And I think not just in not just a decade, but I think the next 20, 30
  • [02:29]
    years are going to be India's, I think much like the last 20, 30 years were a
  • [02:34]
    period of time when China grew dramatically.
  • [02:36]
    I think it's going to be India's turn or the next 20, 30 years.
  • [02:39]
    And I think we have all the right ingredients in place right now.
  • [02:42]
    We've got good, stable political leadership which really wants to make
  • [02:46]
    India a developed country. You know, we've over the last five, ten
  • [02:50]
    years put a lot of building blocks in place on a macroeconomic basis.
  • [02:55]
    And so I think everything is primed right now to to get India to sort of
  • [02:59]
    really cross over to 70% consistent growth over the next 20 years.
  • [03:04]
    So there's been a lot of parallels actually between India and China or at
  • [03:07]
    least drawn into that. China chose at some point to be the
  • [03:11]
    manufacturer of the world. India did it.
  • [03:13]
    Do you see parallels between how these economies can develop?
  • [03:17]
    I you know, I think they're going to be largely different parts because
  • [03:21]
    obviously the Chinese political system is very different from India's.
  • [03:24]
    And I think that itself will lead to different outcomes.
  • [03:28]
    Hopefully India's growth is more sustainable, more long term because of
  • [03:31]
    of the different pressure, but as we have in our system, but also, therefore,
  • [03:36]
    everything takes a lot more time to work out because there are many noises that
  • [03:40]
    have to be that have to be addressed and dealt with.
  • [03:42]
    But I think as in when the the the whole sort of ship starts moving, it moves in
  • [03:47]
    a more sustainable manner. And I think that's hopefully what is
  • [03:49]
    going to happen over the next many years.
  • [03:52]
    As far as manufacturing is concerned, I don't think that India is going to be a
  • [03:55]
    great manufacturing country of the type that China has become.
  • [03:59]
    But I think on the other hand, we'll find our own model, you know, will be a
  • [04:02]
    great service. This country will be a great back
  • [04:04]
    office, will be great. Hopefully at some point it will become a
  • [04:07]
    front office as well. And obviously infrastructure development
  • [04:11]
    is going to be a massive opportunity in India as well.
  • [04:13]
    And I think the government is trying to push manufacturing.
  • [04:15]
    So we may not become the China manufacturing, but we'll certainly
  • [04:18]
    become the plus one to China in manufacturing.
  • [04:21]
    And so where does renewables fit into all of this?
  • [04:23]
    I mean, this is, you know, greening a big economy with many citizens and also
  • [04:29]
    finding the right infrastructure in place.
  • [04:31]
    Yeah, look, I think renewables is absolutely critical in India right now
  • [04:35]
    because and I'll give you some numbers. If you look at where India is today, we
  • [04:39]
    already have the third largest energy market in the world and our per capita
  • [04:44]
    energy consumption is among the lowest in the world.
  • [04:46]
    India is now growing at 7 to 8% every year, which means that there is going to
  • [04:50]
    be a massive increase in energy demand in India over the next several decades.
  • [04:55]
    In fact, we're going to be the largest contributor to global energy demand
  • [04:58]
    compared to any other country. But as the US or even China.
  • [05:02]
    Now, the question is if we grow like every other country so far as corn,
  • [05:06]
    which is using a fossil fuel intensive mechanism of growth, the amount of
  • [05:10]
    carbon emissions that will put into the atmosphere are going to be enormous,
  • [05:13]
    which is going to be horrible for everybody in the world, including for
  • [05:17]
    Indians. And therefore we have to follow a
  • [05:19]
    different path. And that path has not been done by has
  • [05:22]
    not been followed by anybody else. So we have to evolve our own unique path
  • [05:27]
    to grow in a carbon light way. And that fundamentally, therefore, will
  • [05:33]
    require a huge amount of more renewable energy capacity.
  • [05:36]
    And, you know, when you do the numbers and you look at energy growth and you
  • [05:39]
    look at how much renewables has to contribute, you you know, you realize
  • [05:43]
    that India has to add almost 4 to 5 times the amount of renewable capacity
  • [05:48]
    in the next 20 odd years, as much as the US has from all the power generating
  • [05:54]
    sources today. So the US, for example, has about a.
  • [05:58]
    Gigawatt of power generating capacity. We introduce bills have to add about 45
  • [06:02]
    gigawatts in the next 20, 25, five, 45,000 gigawatts and the next 20 to 25
  • [06:07]
    years. So I mean, the investment required is
  • [06:10]
    going to be enormous. The effort to get this done is going to
  • [06:13]
    be massive. But eventually that's the only path that
  • [06:16]
    exists for both India and for the world. But India also wants to be energy
  • [06:19]
    independent. And so does that mean that there will be
  • [06:22]
    a continuous use of coal to make up for, you know, energy when renewables are
  • [06:28]
    slower, but also in the transition period?
  • [06:29]
    Yeah. Yeah.
  • [06:30]
    You know, I think it's an important issue that you raised as he India's
  • [06:35]
    growth of energy demand is such that we cannot in the short term meet all of
  • [06:40]
    that through renewable, renewable energy, irrespective of how hard we are
  • [06:43]
    pushing growth right now. So some part of the balance will have to
  • [06:46]
    be made by coal for the near-term. But I think by 2035 or so, I think we
  • [06:51]
    reach a level of renewables addition. We won't actually need coal and we can
  • [06:55]
    then start replacing coal. So by 2045, by 2050, will, you know,
  • [07:00]
    coal would have gone down substantially and renewables will form the large part
  • [07:04]
    of the grid and maybe nuclear and hydro and so on.
  • [07:07]
    So I think give us a little bit of time and we'll get to a point where our
  • [07:11]
    energy system will be fundamentally driven by clean energy.
  • [07:16]
    And that will also, by the way, have a massive benefit for India because it'll
  • [07:20]
    decrease our dependence on imports of fossil fuels.
  • [07:22]
    Today, India pays almost $200 billion every year for imported fossil fuels,
  • [07:27]
    which is a big Achilles heel of India's economy.
  • [07:29]
    Now, all of that will get addressed, and I think the government recognizes that.
  • [07:32]
    And Prime Minister Modi has been pushing forward the whole issue of energy
  • [07:36]
    independence through renewables very substantially.
  • [07:39]
    So so might you start you in 2011? I imagine there are many ups and downs.
  • [07:43]
    First of all, was how difficult was it to convince that the future for, you
  • [07:48]
    know, Indian energy was green? You know, when you start a business, any
  • [07:54]
    business, I would imagine, you know, in the beginning phase, you're not really
  • [07:58]
    thinking about what's going to happen to you 50 years later.
  • [08:00]
    You're thinking about what might happen to you 15 days later.
  • [08:03]
    And so the challenges are very immediate.
  • [08:05]
    And so when I started, my intention was to just set up a, you know, a reasonable
  • [08:09]
    business and and then grow it depending on how things would evolve.
  • [08:13]
    So I would say for the first two, three years, we were just looking to try to
  • [08:17]
    prove the fact that as a company we could actually get projects executed,
  • [08:21]
    that we could raise capital for it and those kinds of things.
  • [08:25]
    It's only subsequently after we got to a certain size three or four years into
  • [08:29]
    our journey that I really started sort of putting my head over water and
  • [08:32]
    looking at the future. And and at that time, the futures
  • [08:36]
    started seeming a lot brighter than what I had, you know, been able to anticipate
  • [08:41]
    until that time. And I think then in 2014 was a bit of a
  • [08:44]
    turning point in India, because that's when this government came in and Prime
  • [08:48]
    Minister Modi came in. And I think he totally changed the
  • [08:51]
    entire thinking around climate change in India and went from a defensive posture
  • [08:55]
    to a much more, I think, open, positive view on how to deal with climate change
  • [09:00]
    and to totally size the targets on renewables.
  • [09:03]
    And that's really what has allowed us to grow substantially.
  • [09:07]
    Coming up, some unseen reveals what he believes is the simplest thing the world
  • [09:12]
    could do to combat the climate crisis.
  • [09:22]
    The clean energy developer Renew has been recognised for its decarbonisation
  • [09:27]
    efforts and sustainable portfolio across solar, wind and hydro.
  • [09:33]
    Company founder Suman Sinha says progress is being made on the green
  • [09:36]
    transition, but a host of challenges remain across governments, corporations
  • [09:41]
    and the mindset of consumers. He tells me about the challenges facing
  • [09:45]
    his industry and how people often choose a cheaper option, even if it's the wrong
  • [09:50]
    thing for the planet.
  • [09:56]
    If I get started on climate change, I think there are so many issues that we
  • [09:59]
    still have to deal with that are not really getting addressed the way they
  • [10:02]
    should and which is. So first of all, you know, the entire
  • [10:07]
    process is you know, is talking about commitments by various countries.
  • [10:11]
    And those commitments at this point don't add up to the 1.5 degrees
  • [10:14]
    centigrade temperature change that all of us are trying to get to.
  • [10:17]
    In fact, I would say that 1.5 degrees is already well behind us.
  • [10:21]
    We now have to try to keep the temperature change down to two degrees
  • [10:24]
    or two and a half degrees. But currently, all the commitments of
  • [10:27]
    the world, if you add them all up, take us to between two and a half and three
  • [10:29]
    degrees centigrade temperature change. And these are just commitments.
  • [10:34]
    Action is at a whole different level, which is much, much weaker or better.
  • [10:38]
    So it is it is it is a lot lower than what people are committing right now.
  • [10:43]
    I don't think any country is really on track to meet their Paris commitments,
  • [10:49]
    on their on their NDCs. So, in fact, therefore, you know,
  • [10:53]
    commitments are not adequate. Action is even less adequate than that.
  • [10:58]
    And so we're actually falling behind quite substantially.
  • [11:02]
    And then you look at the corporate sector, you know, in the corporate
  • [11:06]
    sector and corporates, but we account for two thirds of carbon emissions
  • [11:09]
    globally. Some corporates are voluntarily doing
  • [11:13]
    what needs to be done. But most corporates with the, you know,
  • [11:16]
    are not doing what needs to be done. And there isn't a proper system globally
  • [11:20]
    that really measures how much carbon is being put out by anybody at this point
  • [11:24]
    in time. Right.
  • [11:25]
    And you can't measure it. There's not a problem.
  • [11:28]
    That's exactly that's the problem. Just like just like every food product
  • [11:32]
    specifies on its packaging that this is the amount of calories this part of the
  • [11:36]
    thing has or fat or whatever else. We need to have almost the same
  • [11:39]
    definition of carbon that this product that is used, whether is a service or
  • [11:44]
    actual product consumed or produced this much carbon.
  • [11:47]
    Right. And then we should all be able to, as
  • [11:48]
    consumers, be able to start moving towards a carbon free product.
  • [11:53]
    Why? What I mean, it seems like we're taking,
  • [11:54]
    if not a step back, certainly you say we're not going to meet the targets that
  • [11:59]
    we've set out. Is it distraction because of other
  • [12:02]
    global risks or is it just not the right kind of power because we don't have the
  • [12:07]
    technology or the carbon capture? I think fundamentally it's human nature.
  • [12:12]
    You know, people don't want to do things that cost them more, even though they
  • [12:16]
    might be the right things to do. And corporates are not set up in a way
  • [12:21]
    to do the right thing. They are, you know, set up to deliver
  • [12:24]
    more value to their shareholders. And so if you ask them to do something
  • [12:28]
    that costs more but does the right thing, most people are going to choose
  • [12:32]
    the thing that costs them less because, you know, ultimately it's our pocket
  • [12:36]
    that drives our lives. And so therefore, unless we start making
  • [12:41]
    the use of carbon more expensive and we start making transparent what different,
  • [12:46]
    you know, what different products are emitting in terms of carbon, until we
  • [12:49]
    start doing that, I don't really think that customers are going to be aware
  • [12:53]
    enough and corporates are going to be aware enough to really start moving
  • [12:56]
    carbon usage down. And one of the most simple things that
  • [13:00]
    the world needs to do, I tell you, I say simple, but it's actually one of the
  • [13:02]
    most complex things, is that we need to have a single price of carbon globally.
  • [13:07]
    And if you can say that for years, I know and it's a very complex thing to
  • [13:10]
    do, but the reality is that there isn't really enough sufficient political
  • [13:13]
    backing behind it. You know, nobody really wants to do it
  • [13:16]
    because they all know that it's going to make everything more expensive because
  • [13:20]
    right now we're just all used to using carbon and just putting it into the
  • [13:23]
    atmosphere. The moment start that starts getting
  • [13:25]
    costed and everybody's cost is going to go up and in the end of inflation and
  • [13:30]
    political disturbance and, and when everything you know politically is so
  • [13:34]
    finely balanced, nobody wants to be the person who takes that call.
  • [13:37]
    Unfortunately, there are many, many questions actually, what the energy
  • [13:40]
    complex looks like for renewables. There's, you know, many question marks
  • [13:43]
    about wind turbines that are not really working.
  • [13:45]
    Hydrogen, is it the brown kind? Is it actually, you know, the blue or
  • [13:50]
    the green kind? How do you see the energy complex and is
  • [13:53]
    it really different region from region? You know, right now, I think if you look
  • [13:58]
    at energy as a whole, 25% of energy carbon emissions comes from electricity
  • [14:03]
    for electricity. We know what the solution is.
  • [14:05]
    We need to really just decarbonize using clean energy.
  • [14:09]
    The technology is there. Nuclear?
  • [14:12]
    No, it's mostly wind and solar. It could be nuclear.
  • [14:14]
    Nuclear is a little bit more expensive, but it does give you that baseload
  • [14:17]
    power. So we know that we need to, you know,
  • [14:21]
    implement wind and solar at massive scale.
  • [14:24]
    Now, the reason we're not able to do that is because grids have not developed
  • [14:28]
    as fast as they should. Local permitting issues are not as
  • [14:31]
    clear. Supply chains are very concentrated, so
  • [14:33]
    we need diversification of supply chain. So there are quite a few issues that
  • [14:37]
    need to be addressed in a basically decarbonising the electricity part, but
  • [14:42]
    that's just 25% of carbon emissions. Then on top of that, you have the rest
  • [14:46]
    of the energy value chain, which is really to be addressed to things like
  • [14:50]
    green hydrogen and green ammonia. And we.
  • [14:54]
    Have to find different use cases. Keep the following in mind.
  • [14:57]
    We have a fossil fuel based economy that has been developed over the last 200
  • [15:02]
    years globally. Right?
  • [15:03]
    Everything in our lives is based on fossil fuels.
  • [15:06]
    Now we are trying to fundamentally reshape and retrain and change all of
  • [15:09]
    that. And that's going to require a massive,
  • [15:11]
    massive overhaul of all the products that we use, how we use them, you know,
  • [15:15]
    how our minds are wired. You know, today, a young person, a young
  • [15:19]
    you know, you know, 18 is going to think about
  • [15:23]
    getting on a motorcycle and and driving it hard or driving a driving a sports
  • [15:27]
    car, you know, which makes a lot of noise.
  • [15:30]
    You know, all of that has to change. There are cultural changes that need to
  • [15:33]
    happen. I guess there are so many questions
  • [15:34]
    about how you recycle, for example, solar panels, battery.
  • [15:37]
    Is that are these the wrong conversations?
  • [15:40]
    Because you hear that a lot by people who are not necessarily climate deniers,
  • [15:43]
    but just think it's the transition is too expensive and this is consumers on
  • [15:47]
    the street. Yeah, no, look, I think we have to to
  • [15:50]
    address this problem that we have to follow in all of the all of the above
  • [15:52]
    strategy. There's there's no there's no other way
  • [15:55]
    around it. We can't you know, if we just look at
  • [15:58]
    the amount of new minerals and metals we have to mine to make this transition
  • [16:03]
    happen. It's massive, right?
  • [16:04]
    And so if everything has to be mined from scratch, it's going to take too
  • [16:08]
    much effort. So therefore, recycling becomes an
  • [16:10]
    important part of that solution. So I think all of those are things that
  • [16:13]
    we absolutely need to do as well. And so we need new technologies.
  • [16:18]
    We need new recycling systems to be set up.
  • [16:21]
    You know, we need we need fast an infrastructure development on grids and
  • [16:25]
    so on. We need faster permitting.
  • [16:27]
    So there's a whole range of things that need to be addressed for this for this
  • [16:31]
    change to happen. Coming up, Suhasini tells me why success
  • [16:36]
    as an entrepreneur is a lot harder than he thought.
  • [16:47]
    India's Clean Power producer Renew, listed on the Nasdaq in 2021, a key
  • [16:52]
    milestone in the career of company founder Swansea.
  • [16:56]
    He tells me about his professional during the lessons he's learned by
  • [16:59]
    setting up a company and why the building of an organisation never stops.
  • [17:08]
    Was it harder being an entrepreneur than you thought it would be?
  • [17:12]
    It was a lot harder. And and the kind of
  • [17:16]
    things that you have to take responsibility for, you know, as a
  • [17:19]
    profession, it's a little bit different. But here the buck stops with you in
  • [17:23]
    every different way. Right.
  • [17:24]
    And especially if it is capital or if you get listed, you know, you have many,
  • [17:30]
    many stakeholders to manage. And so there's a lot of complexity to
  • [17:33]
    deal with at any given point in time. And you know that if you don't drive
  • [17:37]
    things forward, then perhaps they won't go as well as they might otherwise.
  • [17:41]
    And so therefore, that imposes a much higher degree of responsibility and
  • [17:45]
    burden, which over the years becomes easier to deal with, I guess.
  • [17:49]
    But it's always there. And, you know, as running your own
  • [17:52]
    company, that stress does not go away at any time.
  • [17:54]
    You know, you are you're sort of switched on 24 seven.
  • [17:57]
    And, you know, whether it's night or day or maybe on holiday or anything else
  • [18:02]
    really doesn't matter because, you know, you are at the beck and call of your
  • [18:05]
    business. Is that different because you're a
  • [18:07]
    founder and so you're you're always looking around, you know, you always
  • [18:11]
    have this image of founders as being, if not scrappy, always kind of like on the
  • [18:15]
    go because it's their baby. That is true.
  • [18:18]
    I that I think certainly is the issue. As a founder, you do have an extra sense
  • [18:23]
    of responsibility. And I know at some point I'm going to
  • [18:26]
    have to hand things over. And you want to be very careful about
  • [18:29]
    when you do that, how you do that and so on.
  • [18:31]
    But hopefully that's still some time away.
  • [18:34]
    But I do agree with you that as a founder, you do think that it's your
  • [18:38]
    baby and and therefore you do want to make sure that, you know, you look after
  • [18:44]
    the baby in the right way. And until the baby gets to a level where
  • [18:46]
    it can walk and move on its own. But, you know, as a parent, you never
  • [18:50]
    think that your child is or enough to do that.
  • [18:52]
    So I guess that happens. So what is the most valuable lesson that
  • [18:56]
    you've learnt as an entrepreneur? That's a great question.
  • [19:01]
    You know, if I think back, I would say that
  • [19:04]
    the most important thing that I, you know, I sort of realized is that, you
  • [19:10]
    know, where you get to is really an outcome of the effort that you put in.
  • [19:15]
    And therefore, you have to constantly keep putting in the effort.
  • [19:18]
    You know, the moment you take a step back, everything automatically slows
  • [19:22]
    down a little bit. So you have to be switched on all the
  • [19:24]
    time. You have to be pushing hard all the
  • [19:26]
    time. And you cannot actually ever relax on
  • [19:29]
    that front. I know you were talking about, you know,
  • [19:32]
    execution now being the most important thing, how that, I imagine, means
  • [19:36]
    building the team around you, the best team that you can find.
  • [19:39]
    How do you do that? Yeah, I think, look, getting the right
  • [19:43]
    people and keeping them engaged is one of the hardest challenges that you can
  • [19:49]
    face as a as a founder. And I've been fortunate that we've got a
  • [19:53]
    really good team with us, a team that has been with me for quite, quite a long
  • [19:57]
    time. And and that's made my life a little bit
  • [20:00]
    easier. And it's also created a sense of
  • [20:02]
    camaraderie, which is so important because, you know, you spend all your
  • [20:05]
    time with the people around you. So it's very important to have that.
  • [20:10]
    But I think it's it's it's something that you have to think about every
  • [20:13]
    single day as a as a leader of of a company, you know, And it's not just a
  • [20:18]
    question of the people that you have. It's a question of the kinds of systems
  • [20:21]
    you have to to keep them motivated and engaged, to evaluate the performance, to
  • [20:26]
    give them feedback about how to improve, how to prevent attrition, especially in
  • [20:30]
    a sector that is growing so rapidly where you are the incumbent in a sense.
  • [20:33]
    So everybody wants to come and take your people away from you.
  • [20:36]
    And so how do you prevent that from happening and yet keep the, you know,
  • [20:39]
    keep the ship going to all of those are very important challenges.
  • [20:43]
    And I think one of the very critical things is that a lot of young
  • [20:47]
    entrepreneurs don't realise is that when you start as an entrepreneur, you're not
  • [20:52]
    just building your business, which of course you are, but you also building
  • [20:55]
    your organisation. And most people don't realise that.
  • [20:58]
    And building an organisation is not just about hiring people, it's about the
  • [21:02]
    culture, it's about the systems, the values, the mission.
  • [21:06]
    You know, it's about how you operate, how you do things, how you retain
  • [21:09]
    people, how you keep them motivated. So it's all of those things put together
  • [21:15]
    and over time you realise that, you know, a lot of effort has to go into it
  • [21:20]
    and then eventually you have an organisation that has a life of its own.
  • [21:24]
    It's, you know, and it's, it's sometimes you look at it and you marvel and you
  • [21:28]
    think about, you know, how was this created and was I the person that was
  • [21:32]
    behind getting this thing done? And you're not obviously the only person
  • [21:36]
    because there's so many other people along with you, but it's an entity by
  • [21:40]
    itself. It's a it's an almost a living,
  • [21:42]
    breathing, dynamic organisation. What's the hardest part in actually
  • [21:46]
    looking at culture when you start out because you have a million things that
  • [21:49]
    you're thinking about, or is it when the company becomes much bigger?
  • [21:52]
    No, I think you have to put in culture that in the beginning I think it's very,
  • [21:55]
    very important because, you know, as you as as more people come in, they all come
  • [22:01]
    in with their different backgrounds and thought processes and you want to mould
  • [22:04]
    them into the kind of. Vision you have for the organization and
  • [22:09]
    the culture of the organization. You want things to be done in a certain
  • [22:13]
    way. You want a certain level of operating
  • [22:18]
    protocols within the organization. So all of those are things that you have
  • [22:21]
    to put in place right in the beginning. But, you know, the building of the
  • [22:24]
    organization is a constant endeavor. It never goes away.
  • [22:28]
    And, you know, you're always saying, well, why don't I do this earlier?
  • [22:31]
    You know, why did I am I doing this now? Why did I not do this five years ago?
  • [22:35]
    So there's always these little things that you're discovering about how to
  • [22:38]
    build the organization, the areas that you want to work on.
  • [22:40]
    And all of that is really fascinating. And, you know, it's it's a that in
  • [22:44]
    itself is a journey, actually. What's the best piece of advice you've
  • [22:47]
    ever received? Oh, good question.
  • [22:52]
    I think, you know, my wife gives me a lot of advice.
  • [22:54]
    A lot of it is very useful. I think the best advice I've just got is
  • [22:59]
    just to focus on what I'm doing and not to get distracted by what's happening
  • [23:03]
    around you. Just to keep your head down and keep
  • [23:07]
    just keep at it. Is that the same advice you give your
  • [23:09]
    children? Good question.
  • [23:13]
    I give them a lot of advice. I don't think that they necessarily take
  • [23:17]
    it all the time as young people have wanted to do.
  • [23:21]
    I think that, you know, my my advice to my kids is to find their own path.
  • [23:26]
    I think that's the most important thing. They need to find their own direction.
  • [23:29]
    They need to do things that excite them and motivate them.
  • [23:32]
    And as a parent, the tendency always ends up, you know, being that you want
  • [23:37]
    to direct them a little bit more than you that they want.
  • [23:40]
    And so the best thing you can do as a parent is to just give them the right
  • [23:44]
    foundations, the right sets of values, and then let them go.
  • [23:47]
    And to have the confidence that you have done your job, which allows them then to
  • [23:51]
    lead their own lives in the best possible bit.
  • [23:54]
    So thank you so much for joining us on Leaders.
  • [23:56]
    Thank you. Thank you so much.